

There is a movement in some Christian (and perhaps other) circles to revert many of the overbearing changes that have come out of the Women's Rights movement. This reaction goes by the name that is used to describe many societies, including our own in times gone by -- Patriarchalism. Like most reactions, this movement can swing to the far side of the spectrum. That doesn't mean that we should always find the happy center between arguments (there are times to be extreme), but I think that on the majority of issues it is a good idea.
I'm going to admit that I did not grow up around this idea and have only started to learn about it in the past 3-4 years. One of my friends asked for an opinion about Patriarchal families, so this is my humble attempt to spell out some of the details.
Let's begin with a quick explanation of how a Patriarchal family operates and how widespread the underlying idea is. From Wikipedia:
Patriarchy is the structuring of family units based on the man, as father figure, having primary authority over the rest of the family members.
Societies have marked differences in the way they exploit resources for survival, the artifacts they produce and in various rituals and other traditions. They also have similarities like marriage, family and the incest taboo. Aspects of human behaviour and social organisation that are common to all known societies are called cultural universals. Patriarchy is one of these universals.
This "universal" is one of the things that the women's rights movement has set out to change. It might be fair for me to also admit that I am not entirely convinced that women voting is the best thing to happen. Before you get too upset with me, hear me out. What good does it do for a husband and a wife to vote for two different people? If you are not in favor of families operating as a family unit, then you could consider this to be an improvement. If you do happen to like families staying together, this causes many spouses to cancel each other out during elections and their family is absolutely worthless to society then. It is better for them to decide together who they will vote for. This should be how they operate other parts of their lives as well.
In case you are one of those who believes that families are not important, I would like to point out that even the misguided United Nations has created a children's fund, UNICEF, which says that children have a right to live with both parents.
Now that we've hit that rabbit trail, let's return to the modern patriarchal family movement. One of the really big problems that comes from it is that women are largely distrusted outside of the leadership of a husband or father. This means that the girl has to stay at home until she marries. Sometimes this includes the guys as well. From a letter sent to Michael Pearl
While homeschooling my own kids many years ago, we read an article that told about how certain ants secrete a hormone that prevents aphids from growing wings and flying away, allowing the ants to “farm” the aphids for the honeydew they produce. This is exactly what my parents did to us. We weren’t just discouraged from exercising our wings and flying from the nest, we were prevented from growing wings at all!
I tend to believe that many of the Patriarchal families you speak of are really Matriarchal families. And if you think this is impossible, you have never experienced the power and mind control an extremely intelligent and manipulative mother can have over her (young) children’s minds, and to some extent (though it may take years), over her husband. I don’t know if she really controls my dad; I think he just gave up.
The note about Matriarchal families is an interesting one and I will return to that briefly in a bit. The really odd thing about these family organizations is how they behave when non-normal situations are thrown at them. The world that we live in tends to have a number of those scenarios up its sleeve. Sorry for not citing this one, but I have even heard some Christian leaders teach that widows should return to their father's house and live under him again. Even if the marriage and moving out from under the parents' roof did not change the relationship (Genesis 2:24), this teaching contradicts what Paul wrote in I Corinthians 7:39:
The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
Now let's introduce this as a predicament. One of my friends became a widow less than two years after she married. Why is she allowed to choose who she marries now (and what she does) while another girl of the same age who has not married is not able to?
I have also heard of churches where the distinction between the "girls" and the "women" was whether the young lady had a child or not. It had nothing to do with either age or maturity, but instead dealt only with whether she has birthed a child. Would this not encourage girls to simply get pregnant at the first opportunity?
In the same way, I believe that holding your children back because they are not married is an encouragement to marry the first guy that doesn't show any interest -- pardon me -- that shows a hint of interest.
There was a mention earlier of Matriarchal families. As you might have guessed, that means that the mother rules the roost. It is not hard to find families where that occurs. One youth leader that I know interprets Genesis 3:16 as a desire for women to rule over their husbands. Men are, generally, more easy-going than women and tend to put up with a lot for the sake of peace. Abraham fathered Ishmael. Isaac took Rachel and Leah's maidservants as concubines while the two wives feuded over their usefulness to bear children.
That doesn't mean that women are evil and must be controlled, though I did listen to some women today talk about the backstabbing that occurs in an all-female workplace. They also said that there were problems when it was all-male. There is some give and take on both sides. Men and women bring aspects to the table that need to be rounded out by the other -- especially in marriage.
The Patriarchal view did sound attractive to me for a short period of time. The main reason was because I knew a few girls who were not strong enough in their faith to withstand college but were going anyway. What an egotistical thing for me to think. There are men that have the same problem and all children have to be released at some point. You and I cannot be around forever. We should plan to raise our kids to know why they believe what they do and hiding them from everything is not going to do that.
A lot of homeschoolers seem to get confused about this as well. It's really the same issue. Homeschooling is not about hiding or withdrawing from the world in order to protect the kids. It is about being next to your child and being able to teach them why they want to respond to situations in a certain way. One day they are going to learn that most people have reasons for what they do. Will those reasons overrun your "don't question our method" commands?
There is more, though. If something happens to my wife, I like to think that I can manage even though some drastic changes will have to be made. How well will a woman be able to cope with the situation reversed? Do I have to train her in how the world works so that she can keep the family together? To keep her severely sheltered does me a grave disservice. Yes, I am selfish.
Regardless of whether it is the husband or wife that is manipulating to keep the children close, I do not believe it is wise. It is impossible to protect from everything.

Some women will spend thirty minutes to an hour preparing for church externally (putting on special clothes and makeup, etc.). What would happen if we all spent the same amount of time preparing internally for church—with prayer and meditation?
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You...
...certainly made some good points.
You seem to be endorsing the
You seem to be endorsing the view that one person being in charge in marriage is bad because they can use that power for bad things, and the best approach is a collaborative approach. How do you align that with Ephesians 5:23 and therefore the overall ramifications for church authority as well?
They reconcile.
That is not entirely how I think marriage is supposed to work, though you are right that it appears that way from this post. The husband is still head of the wife (as you point out) and the wife is to submit to his authority (Ephesians 5:22). This allows a decision to be made when the two disagree.
Because the husband and wife become one flesh (Genesis 2:24), if God is commanding a major life decision then, as a general rule, both spouses should be in agreement over it. If they are not then one of them is not hearing correctly and they should both seek God about it.
Christ's leadership was servant leadership. If someone runs around shouting "submit!" all of the time then there is a pretty good chance that he is pushing his own preferences over those of the others in his family. It is great how women are told to submit in a lot of churches while the husbands are never taught to love their wives (Ephesians 5:28). It is the same passage.
One might also ask if God keeps our best interests in mind when making his plans. We know that he does (Isaiah 64:4; Romans 8:28) and we also know that prayer does affect God's decisions (ie. Exodus 32:11-14; Matthew 7:7-12; Luke 11:2-4). Our church does not pray enough (nor do I) but that is another topic.
There is an interesting placement for women in the Bible that is often forgotten or distorted. I am sure that you are familiar with I Timothy 2:12 ("But I suffer not a woman to teach..."). Why, then, do men look to Proverbs 31 when they look for the qualifications of a good wife? There are teachings in that chapter for men. It is also the mothers who receive credit for their sons being good or bad rulers in the books about the kings (ie. I Kings 14:21,22; 15:2,3; 15:10,11; 22:42,43; II Kings 8:26,27; etc.).
Why would we trust women to teach their children if they cannot be trusted to give their husbands good advice most of the time? There is a time and place for each mode. Paul stayed with a family that had four virgin daughters which prophesied (Acts 21:8-10). Do women teach or don't they?
I am not pitting Scripture against itself, but rather am trying to show how both views are not quite right in the way that a lot of people teach them. It is a hard line to teach.
Hmm. You appear to make some
Hmm. You appear to make some assumptions about my positions as well. I don't jump from "submit" to "advice not worth much". I don't accent denying woman from teaching vs. the incredible investment good mothers make in their children (and I love the (approximate) saying "behind every successful man is a good wife" -- not demeaning the wife, just admitting that success in life is rarely a solo enterprise especially when a family is involved).
I am bugged by the assessment that churches teach women to submit but don't teach men to love. I don't have a way to assess this, but I'm blessed by a church that is careful to demonstrate the huge responsibility the man has along with a balanced instruction to the wife. This kind of assessment however still strikes me as using those who claim to be Christians to define Christianity. The standard is what the Bible says. Whether churches fail to be balanced doesn't weaken it.
I appreciate how you think the basis for decision making is ideally supposed to work. However I would state it that the fact that my wife and I are one definitely influences the basis of my decisions -- I must consider the needs of my whole body: the one I was born in and the one I became one with.
However I've become convinced recently that we are over spiritualizing things to believe that there is one right decision on most items -- including major ones. There are multiple right decisions for most life decisions and if the husband and wife don't agree there isn't a perfect will to be found. Each one does have the opportunity to sacrifice for the other in any decision. However in cases of disagreement it may be that the opportunity here is for the wife to be refined by submitting to her husband and not for them to somehow come to an agreement.
What frustrates me about the teaching for husbands is a lack of clarity on what love for the wife really is. It seems to become trying to do what they want as much as possible and that definitely doesn't appear to be the idea.
As far as being able to sort things out to a single standard I believe that's a dangerous position to take with the beyond-man wisdom in the scripture. For instance the simple "before the foundations of the world I knew you" and yet "come to me you who are weary and heavy burdened and I will give you rest". They are both completely true, but trying to give them perfect harmony takes a risk of reducing God to something man can compartmentalize.
While you answered my question about your position more clearly, to me you didn't actually address focus of the verse I started with. The husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church. The marriage relationship is supposed to represent the relationship of Christ to the church. His headship is unambiguous. If we weaken the husbands headship we're also making a comment on Christ's headship and I believe also implying an issue with church leadership and authority in a Christian's life.
You jumped to saying we run around saying "submit" but in reality husbands should be the ones with the most heebie-jeebies. They're supposed to model Christ in their leadership. They're the one given that role. I can tell you there's nothing easy about that responsibility.
I think I've missed the relationship of your paragraph on prayer...feel free to help me make the connection. But in that paragraph I do point again to the lack of ability to put God in a specific human interpretation. While He indicates how he wants us to pray, and he puts his chosen actions in the human context of changing his mind, He also is comfortable to say that he never changes His mind. (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29) I accept this seemingly human logic conflict: I am commanded to pray, and I am comforted that he is omnipotent.
To conclude at this point my concerns are around:
- accepting all the instruction of the Bible and not finding escape clauses by applying human logic to reconcile things that to man may appear to conflict
- not using the experiences with Christians in the world to show whether something needs to be reinterpreted
- creating any ambiguity in the husband's incredibly scary responsibility for Christ-modeled leadership and the clean working of the family decision making roles
Thank you for your time in discussion. BTW...is there a way for my email to be notified of a response to this?
On Prayer and Such
You are probably right that I'm jumping to conclusions. When arguing a point it is easy to at least appear extreme to the other side (as happened with the main blog post) and the last reply was to show the center-line, as I see it, more clearly. Women are very valuable in our lives.
You are indeed blessed to be in a church that teaches both the husbands and wives. My pastor does balance teachings also, but I've sat in churches that taught only women submitting to the husband week after week. After a while you get the feeling that the pastor is on a power trip over his wife. I've heard similar things from other people, so I know that this church was not isolated in this.
Yes, most issues in life are not as black/white as we want to make them (though it is easier to think in such a way). That does pose another problem for simply telling wives to submit to the ultimate decisions of their husbands though. From my own experience, without at least understanding someone else's reasoning, I have a very hard time treating their idea as being equal with my own. Even with an understanding of their reasoning, if I don't agree then it is still very difficult to carry it through as they would like. The more rare those situations are from individuals, the easier it is to do. I think that the call to "submit" should be rare in practice.
Those times of disagreement can also be times for the husband to demonstrate his love. John 15:13:
That does not mean doing everything she wants, but it might still mean the husband laying aside some of his own desires. You seem to know what I mean here as you mention considering your wife's good as well as your own. I'm certainly not convinced that everyone who aims for a patriarchal family does.
The Calvinism debate is a fun one. I have an understanding of it that makes sense to me in all but one or two places. I'll iron those out in time. There is a book called The Soul of Prayer by P. T. Forsyth that you might enjoy. In it the author says that in prayer many of these seeming contradictions do reach a point where they make sense, as our soul touches God's. I'm inclined to agree from what I have seen so far. That even includes the command to pray. God knows all things but he takes delight in being petitioned. The prayer probably is more for us but it does still affect our God. Revelation 8:4 puts it to an interesting symbol.
Concerning Christ's headship, let me ask for clarification of what you are asking. Do you think that Christ gives us commands each and every day that are to be followed to the letter or do we have a general purpose that we work through with him on a day-to-day basis? Is it weakening the idea of the headship of Jesus to say that there is a general purpose in marriage and that it is worked out in daily living?
Oh, yes, it is very sobering when a girl takes you at your word about something for the first time that a certain issue was going to play out in a certain way. That was more-or-less my introduction into this debate. But a lot of men still use "submit" to override a lot. That I do have a problem with.
Wesley taught that experience was a necessary part in understanding the Scriptures (though it was also trumped by the text). Should you and I sell everything that we have and give it to the poor so that we can be perfect (Matthew 19:21)? Your experience has already given you an interpretation of those words.
I hope that this has addressed at least two of your major points.
If you create an account (on the right), you can configure it to send you notification for all comments in addition to the posts. When this discussion has run its course, you can disable those notifications if you like. I may try to set up per-post comment RSS feeds but that probably won't get done this week.
Impressive response
I was very thrilled with your response. Reading it quickly just now I found us to be in much agreement. I'll probably try and reply in a little more detail (I'm sure there's a subject or two that we could discuss more), but thanks for the time you've taken on this discussion. It's been very valuable for me.
Luke.
response to questions
I at least need to go ahead and respond to your questions; I'm sensing my life may get busy for a few days and I might not be back soon (easy come, easy go!).
> ...Christ gives us commands each and every day that
> are to be followed to the letter or do we have a
> general purpose that we work through with him on a
> day-to-day basis? Is it weakening the idea of the
> headship of Jesus to say that there is a general
> purpose in marriage and that it is worked out in
> daily living?
I think so (the latter); I didn't sense anything counter to what I was trying to say (to me the latter answer matches what I was saying). The nuance is in the details. I would say that just as we daily lay down our lives for Christ, I would daily lay down my life for those around me, and the wife may feel that she submits in things on a daily basis. I would hope that the "large and hard" times to submit would be rare.
The thing that causes people to go into a tizzy is when there's that ultimate basis "hanging over their head" on how things will be resolved. Just because someone has that kind of authority over them they sometimes hear every little thing as invoking that ultimate authority. For me that's an issue on the side (in the heart) of the hearer more than the requestor. Having the authority to have submission doesn't remove the ability of the person doing the submitting to ask "can we do this differently". It's a small nuance, but it caries the weight of day to day living...it's very hard to work out in practice. I believe it's a wedge that provides easy temptation.
> Should you and I sell everything that we have and
> give it to the poor so that we can be perfect
> (Matthew 19:21)?
I point our that Jesus said "one thing you lack"... this had to do with the heart of the person asking the question. If my heart was tied up in material things, then yes, I should do the verse as it is instructed. My tendency, actually, is to be overly dismissive of material things, and I actually need to love my wife and my family by spending a little more so they don't suffer unduly (and be tempted to bitterness over my unreasonblely miserly ways).
This was my favorite part of your reply:
> From my own experience, without at least
> understanding someone else's reasoning, I have a
> very hard time treating their idea as being equal
> with my own. Even with an understanding of their
> reasoning, if I don't agree then it is still very
> difficult to carry it through as they would like.
That is so much where we all are at. If every husband would stop each time they ask ANYTHING of their wife and be amazed when she lovingly submits (in anything...even if she is glad to do it), I think there would be a change in all parties. I try and work very hard that any expression of preference, any request, any attitude I have, any thankfulness I express about what she invests in me and my family...those are the constant sacrifices she makes to love me. It's absolutely amazing. There's no way my feelble pursuit of Christ-like leadership deserves anything like that.
Late Reply...
Sorry this reply has been a while in coming. I've been trying to finish a couple projects and still have a bit of catching up to do. So if you get busy that is fine too. :)
Yeah, the same here -- I would hope that the large and hard issues do not come up often. Most of the time, the issues that feel big really aren't.
It is very popular in our culture to want to throw off all authority and to rebel against any form of organization. There has been a successful push to convince people that being under another person makes them inferior to the other (yet we ironically forget that the borrower is servant to the lender). That is certainly not the case in every situation, and can be demonstrated with Scripture to boot (ie. John 5:18 or Philippians 2:6). Not only is it a wedge that provides easy temptation, but there are not many people living out true servant leadership now. That practically drives people to reject all leadership.
You did get a chuckle out of me over the miserly ways comment. I am the same way about most things (except for books -- the knowledge in them quickly overcomes that).
Understanding what you ask of others is a huge step in the direction of being a decent leader. A lot of people either don't know it or choose to ignore the cost to others.
"by love serve one another"
and "in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" came to mind.
This is a very complex
This is a very complex subject and often there seems to be no easy answers, especially for those of us who have experienced some of these things first hand.
I shared this link in chat a couple times so you may have seen it before, but it Scripturally addresses a number of the serious issues that can result from patriocentric/matriocentric family situations.
Misuse of spiritual things for evil always sad
I reviewed a number of the entries on that blog, Abi, and I want to say that in no way am I endorsing anything sinful, wicked, evil, or unlawful in my perspective on the order of the household. As some might disparage Christianity because of the crusades (just the first simple example that popped to my mind), it is very sad when something intended for blessing is used for domination, subjection, persecution, abuse, inappropriate control, or anything tantamount to murder. My heart goes out to you and those you highlight for the pain that you have experienced.
Though my comment was not
Though my comment was not directed at your posts at all, I appreciate your clarification and understanding. Yes, it is always sad when something that is essentially good is taken out of balance or otherwise abused in such a way that people are hurt and opportunity is given for God to be blasphemed. History is full of sad examples of such taking place, and it surely must deeply grieve the Father.
Thanks.
Thanks, I don't remember seeing that blog before (guess I've missed it). A lot of these problems are failures in apology -- we can not discuss and defend what we believe so we put harsh restraints on others so that they don't question or dig any deeper. It will be the undoing of their lives. Hosea 4:6:
You could argue that this has to do with forgetting the fear of the Lord (beginning of all knowledge and wisdom). Proverbs 10:21 also talks about the lack of wisdom (which is knowledge in action, right?).
The reason that this mentality is so strange is that there are not any successful hermits in the Bible. We only affect others for the better by clinging to God and interacting with them. I think that the ability to explain ourselves is a necessity.
Anyway. There are some who can explain what they believe and why. I tend to think that those people will be less likely to be abusive in Patriarchal families.
If by submissive one means
If by submissive one means obedience to a command(which is the way men use it most of the time, ironically), I should hope that is a rare occur. Submission as an attitude of humility and servitude should be a daily occurrence in all places and all times.
Of course, the husband cannot ask his wife to have that attitude. A feminine heart (and understanding of a feminine heart) is reserved for women...there's a reason God instructs the older women to train the younger while never commanding the men to train them.
Nope, I don't mean that
I don't mean submissive like most "men" use it. I mean it the way the Bible defines it. Of course we are all called to humility and service to others on a constant basis.
I'm distressed by the second paragraph because I don't find any Biblical basis for "cannot ask his wife" and something called "A feminine heart" and "understanding of a feminine heart" and "reserved for women"...
Men are supposed to be pastors and teachers (not opening a debate here about women being pastors and teachers; there are women called to that as well and there's a place for that). That is clearly and pervasively taught. They are not supposed to skip sections on the Bible that relate to woman's role in the marriage. That would be a clear thing that would beg a clear instruction that I don't see in the scripture. Using a basis of things that the Bible explicitly instructs would produce a fractured interpretation.
Actually...
I have to agree with Luke on this one. Proverbs 31 was written by a mother to her son. The well-known commands concerning women come from Paul, who was unmarried (yes, there is some discussion over whether Paul had had a wife -- I don't know). I think it wise to let other women do the teaching most of the time, but it is not a requirement.
If a man cannot understand his wife's heart, there is no point in trying to understand her or her needs in marriage. That would be a truly frustrating world.
You can ask obedience, you
You can ask obedience, you cannot ask submission for one is from the law and one is from the heart. One can ask for eternal calling, but cannot ask for internal obedience. One can ask for work, but cannot ask for rest. The difference may seem minute, but it is not.
Jesus is calling us to the latter. The individual must choose whether he or she will accept the invitation to trust, rest, and abide.
I am sorry....but men have failed to understand a woman's heart. I could give a long list, but I am afraid it would not be received well because men simply don't want to understand. Feel free to e-mail me, though, as I prefer one-on-one conversation.
I will, however, post something from the HSA thread a few weeks back. Don't expect another reply from me as this is sufficient.
Girls are not born wanting to be men. Something happens in a girl who grows up hating her femininity and desiring a man's position, who goes out to prove she can do whatever the men do. When I was a little girl, I wanted to be a boy. I hated being a girl and often prayed to God to make me into a boy. I grew up doing everything I possibly could to prove that I could not only do whatever boys did, I could whoop 'em at it, too. But it wasn't always that way. I know exactly what broke in me and what messages I received to cause me to believe that being a girl wasn't as good as being a boy. And most of them came from sermons and books that look word-for-word like the conservative marriage books.
As a girl I was very imaginative and romantic. I longed for adventures. I dreamed of being a cowgirl or someone like Eowyn or Joan of Arc or Nancy Drew. I devoured every classic adventure story I could get my hands on. But because I was a girl and not a boy, I was told that these desires were wrong. That I was supposed to want to be a wife and mother. That the home was where I belonged. That only men got to live adventuresome lives. Women were "help meets" and stay-at-home moms. Eventually I was told to wear dresses, which really dampened my style because I was a very active child who liked to climb trees and race bikes and build forts in the woods. And so I hated being a girl. Because boys got to have all the fun and girls had to learn to cook and clean and have a "gentle spirit". If this is what femininity was, I wanted no part in it.
It took me until well into my teens to realize that I had been broken somewhere along the way and that God's definition of femininity was vastly different than what most conservative Christian groups taught. God had to do a lot of healing and re-teaching in my life, but sometime I realized I no longer wanted to be a man. That I was glad I was a woman. That my desires for adventure and romance were not my "flesh nature" but were put there by God. Because I had a role to fill in this story called Life and I would need every ounce of those desires to fulfill it.
I know now what it means to fight, sustain, build up and live as a woman. I know now what it means to have a meek and gentle spirit...and it has nothing to do with speaking quietly and sitting demurely in a corner. I know what it means to be the weaker vessel...and it has nothing to do with my abilities, brains, or spiritual state.
But what was broken first had to be healed. And what helped my brokenness and what keeps perpetuating the brokenness in women are well-meaning men (and not so well-meaning men) who think it's their job to teach a woman how to be feminine, writing stuff and pulling verses out of context to form a picture of "the perfect Godly woman."
That is all I meant.
- M
BTW, I never said a man
BTW, I never said a man cannot understand. I said he cannot ask her to be submissive. Surely he can have her move where he wants and eat the food he wants. But the godly attitude that is an outpouring of submission is her personal choice. God has given her the invitation; she has to accept it.
Submission and rest and abiding does not war against femininity but is rather rooted deeply in it. God has commanded the women in the church to teach women what that means because most girls simply have no idea. Girls are left tossed in confusion by the feminism that plagues our world; I pray that women will take them under their wings.
I appreciate you sharing from
I appreciate you sharing from your heart. I believe we've well documented our positions and respect your interest in not debating it further.
Yeah, a lot of women have
Yeah, a lot of women have what it means to be a woman wrong, and during the 80's you could see that the confusion was hitting the men pretty hard as well. Now quite a few of the men are looking for anything that they can cling to. I do firmly believe that this is what has caused the patriarchal movement, as we have it now, to become so popular. I also think that the movement does take a lot of things too far, as most reactionary movements have a tendency to do.
I would clarify that a husband cannot teach his wife (except by example) how to live a life of deference. No, he cannot force her to truly submit, but neither can the teachings of other women.
This whole conversation is making me sound like I am trying to straddle a fence. There is a reason that a marriage is made of a man and a woman and that the requirements on a deacon's wife were the same as on him (1 Timothy 3). They make a team, and that does help those that they minister to. I do think this is because women can help women better, but still don't think that is the only way it can work out.
Hey Marlana, I sent you a
Hey Marlana,
I sent you a message on facebook, but I don't know how often you check it. I would love to talk with you more about this topic. Email me (via facebook) if you are interested!
God bless,
Michele